I see you want to create something, and you need some financial help, thats great, how can I help? Money? Hmm, well, sure, but what do I get for my money? a copy of the product you are making, well that's fair. I'll pay for 1 copy, and help get my 100 friends to pay for a copy too, so you can produce it. How much each? $100? well, its a bit steep, but we love what you're doing, so sure, we'll all give you $100, we'll all talk about it, and help it, and grow it and be part of the community, so you can make your game.
What?! The game I lovingly helped create, and spent $100 on, and then another $20 in shipping, is at my local shop for $60? WTF.. HEY Kickstarter Guy.. Whats going on? You sold it to the shops cheaper than to US? I could have bought this for $60.. man this sucks, Kickstarter Sucks! I'm never going to buy anything from Kickstarter again.. B&*(&@#^%ds you screwed me.. how dare you.
Welcome to Bannister Rails, where I act like an old man and have a screaming rant fest about things that annoy me. Sometimes I even go off the rails..
within the month...
YAY, we funded it..
6-18 months later
YAY its delivered
3 months later, but sometimes at the same time...
What?! The game I lovingly helped create, and spent $100 on, and then another $20 in shipping, is at my local shop for $60? WTF.. HEY Kickstarter Guy.. Whats going on? You sold it to the shops cheaper than to US? I could have bought this for $60.. man this sucks, Kickstarter Sucks! I'm never going to buy anything from Kickstarter again.. B&*(&@#^%ds you screwed me.. how dare you.
Sound Familiar?
Welcome to Bannister Rails, where I act like an old man and have a screaming rant fest about things that annoy me. Sometimes I even go off the rails..
Kickstarter Scams and the Lifecycle of Funding Projects
I'm a Kickstarter Super Backer, this means I have backed over 25 projects of at least $10 each, within the last 3 years, or it was when I looked it up last. So I've had my fair share of the cycles of many projects. Of the 50+ projects I backed (maybe closer to 100), I have yet to receive half, some, because I only recently backed them, so their delivery is 2019 or 2020, some have yet to deliver, even though they said 2018 or 2017. Of those in the latter category, I think only one might not ever get made, and for kickstarter that's pretty good odds.
I've read about a few people who have backed four or more products, and have received nothing to date. Most of them have never backed anything again, and they have a right to that.
There was a time when I felt that backing anything on kickstarter was a coin toss if A), you'd get anything, B) you'd get something along the lines of what you were expecting, but poor quality in comparison to the hype, and rarely C) you'd get exactly what they said they were making (or even rarer.. something better)
As time has gone by, the vetting process of Kickstarter has enabled many various people to assess the project, let other know if its unlikely to back or not, based on their collective experience. As a result its much rarer to get nothing, you're pretty much always going to get something, yet are you going to get your moneys worth.
As time has gone by, the vetting process of Kickstarter has enabled many various people to assess the project, let other know if its unlikely to back or not, based on their collective experience. As a result its much rarer to get nothing, you're pretty much always going to get something, yet are you going to get your moneys worth.
Some people get a bad feeling in their mouth about things, and they spew it out onto the forums of the next KS project that looks like it maybe, might, do the same thing that the last one did. Its an unfortunately cycle, but slowly we have begun circling the drainpipe of bad KS decisions, and while I hope it doesn't kill the platform, I'd prefer it dead than zombified version of itself consuming projects and spitting out filth before eventually rotting away.
* You want to see the company succeed, if they produce this project, they are likely to produce similar projects in the future and you want to be on their mailing list and maybe get a discount for future products as an extra reward for helping build the company.
* You want the product they are making, there is a chance you might get nothing for your money, or a poorly produced product, but that risk is mitigated because you're getting something extra for your risk.
But whats happening now is out of sync:
* You're not being treated as a part of the process of making the product, you've being treated as a cash-cow by the company. Someone who'll buy their product, each and every time, regardless of the quality.
* You're being treated as a dupe, someone who is spending their money up front, because they are scared of missing out. where if they just waited, it'd come to them cheaper and faster.
Some companies have figured out they can produce a half ok game, pack in Lots of Miniatures, and I mean LOTS of miniatures.
See back in the day, Games Workshop produced the best minis, and they had, and still have, a premium price tag. 2 hours wages for a commander, or 3 hours wages for a box of 10 units.
Now, with 3D printing prototypes, 3D cad tools to design, companies like Reaper and CMON can produce decent quality minis at 50c and $2 each respectively, so they can ask people for a couple of hundred dollars for a box of a hundred minis, and like CMON, with some game tacked on, and they know they'll get funded, because the mini buyers are all over that price.
We saw a similar situation happen in the computer games industry. Decent titles being pushed to the back by weak games with fantastic graphics. Now its weak games with lots of minis.
These Mini boxes with some game rules treat the backer as more of a cash cow.. the mini backers will help fund the game and the game backers won't want to miss out on the latest hot 'lots of minis' game.
I can't fault them too much, because they still follow the basics of my understanding of how KS backers should be in on the deal. They produce a game, the game has a retail price for the base set, and a kickstarter set of goodies for the kickstarter backer. They seem to break even on the base + KS goodies, because they'll make a profit on the retail + add-ons, they know that a fair percentage of people are going to get some or all the add-ons, and all the spares will go into retail as limited edition box sets with a half decent hefty mark-up.
Game company wins, KS backer wins, retailer can win if they stock only enough to make some sales but don't get greedy, non KS backer loses out?
This, is to some extent where the issue lies. If the retailer stocks too much, he has to discount the excess stock and then if the kickstarter backer has only backed retail and sees a retail version cheaper than his retail version, then the KS backer has lost out too.
So Issue #1, Retail versions going cheaper than Backer versions.
The other side, the KS company sets the price point for retailers so that its difficult to discount it lower than the Backer 'retail' version. Now the retailer is paying more, so the price has to be higher to begin with, and Retail customers are far more fickle on price than KS backers, so the games don't sell til they discount down to the same price as the KS price, because information is free and anyone can look up the RRP of the KS, but what retailer is going to buy in on a game that has such a small profit margin?
So Issue #2, Retails won't stock the product, and the KS project needs those retail sales to increase the production, so the cost to produce is lower per product!
OR, the KS project treats the backer as a dupe, their Fear of missing out (FOMO) means they'll pay a higher up front price for a product with the hopes they're getting a better deal, then, when they discover they are not, they can't return the goods, they can't sell it for the price they paid to the average consumer, because the retail price is lower, they can maybe sell at 70% cost, taking a 30% loss, a terrible investment, or they can try to recoup some worth by opening it, playing it a few times, and then selling it at 50% of cost, at least saving themselves some other potential cost of going to the movies or out to a bar, which would have cost $50-$100 (petrol, parking, food, tickets, drinks, taxi, etc) yet, these days there is another cost.. the other games you bought and the time loss of playing a game you don't really like, just to get some worth, vs a game you do like, so you can have an enjoyable evening.
Double Screwed.
So, the conclusion to that part is: If you don't go in for the KS exclusives, you won't have a resellable product, and if they're going to bring out retail, you may as well wait for the discounted version.
Heck.. if the game isn't the be all and end all for you, you may as well wait until one of those dupes above, sells his game at 70% brand new or 50% used.
This grinds me so much..
What am I talking about?
In the beginning, you backed a project, you backed the project creators, you and a crowd, got together an mutually agreed to fund this project because of several reasons:* You want to see the company succeed, if they produce this project, they are likely to produce similar projects in the future and you want to be on their mailing list and maybe get a discount for future products as an extra reward for helping build the company.
* You want the product they are making, there is a chance you might get nothing for your money, or a poorly produced product, but that risk is mitigated because you're getting something extra for your risk.
But whats happening now is out of sync:
* You're not being treated as a part of the process of making the product, you've being treated as a cash-cow by the company. Someone who'll buy their product, each and every time, regardless of the quality.
* You're being treated as a dupe, someone who is spending their money up front, because they are scared of missing out. where if they just waited, it'd come to them cheaper and faster.
How can I think/say this?
I engage in the board game community more than other KS communities, I have backed some books, some art, some minis and some tech, and each has their good and bad projects, but I have a majority of board games, so Its easier to pick on targets from that.. so here we goSome companies have figured out they can produce a half ok game, pack in Lots of Miniatures, and I mean LOTS of miniatures.
See back in the day, Games Workshop produced the best minis, and they had, and still have, a premium price tag. 2 hours wages for a commander, or 3 hours wages for a box of 10 units.
Now, with 3D printing prototypes, 3D cad tools to design, companies like Reaper and CMON can produce decent quality minis at 50c and $2 each respectively, so they can ask people for a couple of hundred dollars for a box of a hundred minis, and like CMON, with some game tacked on, and they know they'll get funded, because the mini buyers are all over that price.
We saw a similar situation happen in the computer games industry. Decent titles being pushed to the back by weak games with fantastic graphics. Now its weak games with lots of minis.
These Mini boxes with some game rules treat the backer as more of a cash cow.. the mini backers will help fund the game and the game backers won't want to miss out on the latest hot 'lots of minis' game.
I can't fault them too much, because they still follow the basics of my understanding of how KS backers should be in on the deal. They produce a game, the game has a retail price for the base set, and a kickstarter set of goodies for the kickstarter backer. They seem to break even on the base + KS goodies, because they'll make a profit on the retail + add-ons, they know that a fair percentage of people are going to get some or all the add-ons, and all the spares will go into retail as limited edition box sets with a half decent hefty mark-up.
Game company wins, KS backer wins, retailer can win if they stock only enough to make some sales but don't get greedy, non KS backer loses out?
This, is to some extent where the issue lies. If the retailer stocks too much, he has to discount the excess stock and then if the kickstarter backer has only backed retail and sees a retail version cheaper than his retail version, then the KS backer has lost out too.
So Issue #1, Retail versions going cheaper than Backer versions.
The other side, the KS company sets the price point for retailers so that its difficult to discount it lower than the Backer 'retail' version. Now the retailer is paying more, so the price has to be higher to begin with, and Retail customers are far more fickle on price than KS backers, so the games don't sell til they discount down to the same price as the KS price, because information is free and anyone can look up the RRP of the KS, but what retailer is going to buy in on a game that has such a small profit margin?
So Issue #2, Retails won't stock the product, and the KS project needs those retail sales to increase the production, so the cost to produce is lower per product!
OR, the KS project treats the backer as a dupe, their Fear of missing out (FOMO) means they'll pay a higher up front price for a product with the hopes they're getting a better deal, then, when they discover they are not, they can't return the goods, they can't sell it for the price they paid to the average consumer, because the retail price is lower, they can maybe sell at 70% cost, taking a 30% loss, a terrible investment, or they can try to recoup some worth by opening it, playing it a few times, and then selling it at 50% of cost, at least saving themselves some other potential cost of going to the movies or out to a bar, which would have cost $50-$100 (petrol, parking, food, tickets, drinks, taxi, etc) yet, these days there is another cost.. the other games you bought and the time loss of playing a game you don't really like, just to get some worth, vs a game you do like, so you can have an enjoyable evening.
Double Screwed.
So, the conclusion to that part is: If you don't go in for the KS exclusives, you won't have a resellable product, and if they're going to bring out retail, you may as well wait for the discounted version.
Heck.. if the game isn't the be all and end all for you, you may as well wait until one of those dupes above, sells his game at 70% brand new or 50% used.
This grinds me so much..
Stretch Goals, Kickstarter exclusives, dangerous waters..
There are two kinds of Stretch goals IMO, one good and one bad. Stretch goals can either add to a game, or confuse a game. A Good stretch goal improves the product quality, and a bad stretch goal, either should have been there all along, or should be a well thought out expansion, not a last minute tacked on untested fail.
There are two ways to consider a product improvement. When the Stretch goal is going to take a pretty good game and just make it all the better, that's a good stretch goal.
Case in point. You can produce cards for your game in around 5 possible qualities. The blue-core and linen finish are pricey, they are nice, but they are not required to make a game great, they just add a tad more durability, and quality. the 3rd quality, is often used by quality games and is a great starting point. If your game raises more funds, you can offer up the core & linen as stretch goals.
But if you start at paper and bring the product up to mid tier.. that's a bad stretch goal. You shouldn't try to fund your product as the crappiest version and stretch goal your way to average.
A Similar aspect is game components.
If your putting standees in, cardboard tokens, to represent your game characters. You'll likely miss out on a set of backers that want minis for all games, but you'll get a large number of people that can't afford to pay $$$ for a board game and are happy to play with standees, if they can at least play the game.
Offering a standee version and a mini version, you're going to get two sets of backers, you'll have to do some logistics to ensure you get enough mini backers to break even, but with stretch goals to unlock these, you can ensure that your staggered costs don't break the bank. classically, heroes, boss monsters, monsters and furniture, in that order, could be unlocked as add-ons, and then if you get everything unlocked, you can group them together for the 'mini version'
Or, maybe run two campaigns back to back.. to ensure the numbers of each set.
But some companies actually drop whole parts of their game instead, taking out monsters in sets, but selling them as add-ons. Add-ons should always enhance the game, not be required to play.
Apparently, there is an argument against kickstarter exclusives. Retail sales loss. There are people who will see a retail version of the game, knowing that there are KS exclusive add-ons who will not buy the retail version, because the FOMO on the extras. To acquire those extras, you'll need to convince someone to part with their extras, but not with the main game, or you'll end up with the main game and need to try to find someone else to buy just the main from you, hopefully at cost (but why would they, since its in retail at 25% off!)
This is the dangerous waters that came up before, that I touched on.. How Kickstarter has created this backlash situation, unintentionally, which is causing the issues and problems.
If traditional retailers are happy to take on a product, then why didn't they in the first place?
You can't win both ways.. either take the risk, back the game as a bunch of retailers and sell it in retail, or run the campaign for backers and don't cater to the retailers at all for the Kickstarter product. Retail it later on 2nd print.
These retailers are getting a known selling game, but also, the main audience has already got a copy, so their market are those who could not back it in time, didn't have the money, or wanted to see if it was worth it and the standard retail customer who might buy as much as a year later.
KS backers who don't like the game can on-sell at cost, or up to a % of the retail price based on if they opened it or not. unscrupulous retailers who bought in early but at the higher price can sell their limited but was risky stock. If the game tanked, they'd lose out, if it rocks, they win.. like stock market.
Seems more like a win for all, except the greedy, who never deserve to win.
Why back/pay for a game that is just going to be in shops, cheaper, faster and stress free..
When the creator sells to the customer, they don't have the costs of the merchandiser, the warehouser or the retailer, but they also don't have the skills, the room to stock it, or the shop front. Yet in the world of websites and connectivity, They now have the shop front, and storage 'can' be cheap.
Yet deals have to be made between the stock you sell yourself and the stock sold to the merchandiser. If you undercut them, they won't buy from you and Traditionally, they couldn't undercut you, due to the price difference.
Kickstarter products are sold at such low volumes, that the fixed costs are not mitigated across tens of thousands of units, so the cost to produce is much higher. Yet once the product is produced, the fixed cost no-longer exist, so it seems simple to just cut the price for the next run, and supply the retailers at a lower price.
No deal has been formally made between the stock being sold by the KS creator and the retailer, so the retailer is in a position to undercut the creator. Most of the time, this is just discounts to clear stock. But unscrupulous online retailers are offering sets upfront at 10+% cheaper than the KS itself, with lower or hidden delivery costs. Either way the KS creator loses out, so the retail customer and retailer win.
KS backers, smartening up, will be unlikely to back a project if the retailers get the same deal, and retailers are unlikely to buy a KS project from retail if they don't get the full product. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
So, whats the preferred Win-Win? KS Creator and KS Backer, in my opinion, but whats happening more is the Win-Win is the online retailer and the KS aware retail customer, both of which screwing the KS ecology. Retail backers don't increase the funding, don't increase the rewards offered and this is a Win/Lose for the Creator, The Project only gets retailers if the project funds, the retailers don't back the project, they only 'open the door' for retail options. The only way a KS project is funded above and beyond, is if the Backers feel like their getting a great product, a great deal and will miss out if they don't get it now, (FOMO)
I have increasingly seen backer groups demand exclusives from a product or they pull out, They may not have the knowledge or the insight to understand their feelings well enough, but they are saying the same thing..
Why back it now, if I can get it cheaper later.. I'm waiting a year anyway, I can wait..
I have seen private groups form, where a retailer forms a small team of at least 5, that purchase a retail pledge and buy 6 copies at the retail price, paying the Taxes themselves (on a reduced price) and their team all get a copy, maybe 10% maybe 50% cheaper than the standard KS backer, This only works for KS projects that give out retail copies, identical to KS copies. Follow that rabbit hole, and you might see KS just falling apart at the seems in the next few years.
There are two ways to consider a product improvement. When the Stretch goal is going to take a pretty good game and just make it all the better, that's a good stretch goal.
Case in point. You can produce cards for your game in around 5 possible qualities. The blue-core and linen finish are pricey, they are nice, but they are not required to make a game great, they just add a tad more durability, and quality. the 3rd quality, is often used by quality games and is a great starting point. If your game raises more funds, you can offer up the core & linen as stretch goals.
But if you start at paper and bring the product up to mid tier.. that's a bad stretch goal. You shouldn't try to fund your product as the crappiest version and stretch goal your way to average.
A Similar aspect is game components.
If your putting standees in, cardboard tokens, to represent your game characters. You'll likely miss out on a set of backers that want minis for all games, but you'll get a large number of people that can't afford to pay $$$ for a board game and are happy to play with standees, if they can at least play the game.
Offering a standee version and a mini version, you're going to get two sets of backers, you'll have to do some logistics to ensure you get enough mini backers to break even, but with stretch goals to unlock these, you can ensure that your staggered costs don't break the bank. classically, heroes, boss monsters, monsters and furniture, in that order, could be unlocked as add-ons, and then if you get everything unlocked, you can group them together for the 'mini version'
Or, maybe run two campaigns back to back.. to ensure the numbers of each set.
But some companies actually drop whole parts of their game instead, taking out monsters in sets, but selling them as add-ons. Add-ons should always enhance the game, not be required to play.
Apparently, there is an argument against kickstarter exclusives. Retail sales loss. There are people who will see a retail version of the game, knowing that there are KS exclusive add-ons who will not buy the retail version, because the FOMO on the extras. To acquire those extras, you'll need to convince someone to part with their extras, but not with the main game, or you'll end up with the main game and need to try to find someone else to buy just the main from you, hopefully at cost (but why would they, since its in retail at 25% off!)
This is the dangerous waters that came up before, that I touched on.. How Kickstarter has created this backlash situation, unintentionally, which is causing the issues and problems.
What IS kickstarter.
If its a retail platform, that allows people to buy a product, that would be harder to sell in the traditional manner, then why are traditional retailers even getting this product at all, and even if they are, surely its such a small amount that it doesn't cause too many problems..If traditional retailers are happy to take on a product, then why didn't they in the first place?
You can't win both ways.. either take the risk, back the game as a bunch of retailers and sell it in retail, or run the campaign for backers and don't cater to the retailers at all for the Kickstarter product. Retail it later on 2nd print.
Solution?
Maybe a whole new website "RetailBackers", once your campaign has come to an end, your fixed costs are all paid for and you want to sell another round of games, the retailers all come together, get a 15% discount to purchase 6-12 copies, and the sales price is 25-50% higher than the KS price.These retailers are getting a known selling game, but also, the main audience has already got a copy, so their market are those who could not back it in time, didn't have the money, or wanted to see if it was worth it and the standard retail customer who might buy as much as a year later.
KS backers who don't like the game can on-sell at cost, or up to a % of the retail price based on if they opened it or not. unscrupulous retailers who bought in early but at the higher price can sell their limited but was risky stock. If the game tanked, they'd lose out, if it rocks, they win.. like stock market.
Seems more like a win for all, except the greedy, who never deserve to win.
Conclusion
Being a KS backer has risks, Its one thing to back a game that may or may not be produced, that may be produced but lower quality than expected or advertised, you can research to mitigate this. Yet, having to make a choice that the game may retail lower than the backer price, may be delivered to retail before arriving at your door and at least you can see some reviews on the game before forking out any cash, breaks the whole KS model.Why back/pay for a game that is just going to be in shops, cheaper, faster and stress free..
Final thoughts - with less rant:
Traditional Product creation allowed the product to be created at costs 1, sold to a merchandising company at price 2, who sells to a warehouse at 3, on to the retailer at 5 who sells to the customer at 7-10 dependant on seasons.When the creator sells to the customer, they don't have the costs of the merchandiser, the warehouser or the retailer, but they also don't have the skills, the room to stock it, or the shop front. Yet in the world of websites and connectivity, They now have the shop front, and storage 'can' be cheap.
Yet deals have to be made between the stock you sell yourself and the stock sold to the merchandiser. If you undercut them, they won't buy from you and Traditionally, they couldn't undercut you, due to the price difference.
Kickstarter products are sold at such low volumes, that the fixed costs are not mitigated across tens of thousands of units, so the cost to produce is much higher. Yet once the product is produced, the fixed cost no-longer exist, so it seems simple to just cut the price for the next run, and supply the retailers at a lower price.
No deal has been formally made between the stock being sold by the KS creator and the retailer, so the retailer is in a position to undercut the creator. Most of the time, this is just discounts to clear stock. But unscrupulous online retailers are offering sets upfront at 10+% cheaper than the KS itself, with lower or hidden delivery costs. Either way the KS creator loses out, so the retail customer and retailer win.
KS backers, smartening up, will be unlikely to back a project if the retailers get the same deal, and retailers are unlikely to buy a KS project from retail if they don't get the full product. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
So, whats the preferred Win-Win? KS Creator and KS Backer, in my opinion, but whats happening more is the Win-Win is the online retailer and the KS aware retail customer, both of which screwing the KS ecology. Retail backers don't increase the funding, don't increase the rewards offered and this is a Win/Lose for the Creator, The Project only gets retailers if the project funds, the retailers don't back the project, they only 'open the door' for retail options. The only way a KS project is funded above and beyond, is if the Backers feel like their getting a great product, a great deal and will miss out if they don't get it now, (FOMO)
I have increasingly seen backer groups demand exclusives from a product or they pull out, They may not have the knowledge or the insight to understand their feelings well enough, but they are saying the same thing..
Why back it now, if I can get it cheaper later.. I'm waiting a year anyway, I can wait..
Final Final thoughts.. Backlash as a result:
I have seen private groups form, where a retailer forms a small team of at least 5, that purchase a retail pledge and buy 6 copies at the retail price, paying the Taxes themselves (on a reduced price) and their team all get a copy, maybe 10% maybe 50% cheaper than the standard KS backer, This only works for KS projects that give out retail copies, identical to KS copies. Follow that rabbit hole, and you might see KS just falling apart at the seems in the next few years.
